Ottawa/St Louis

[LosAngelesGM]

You are missing the point. The point isnt the actual deal. Are bad deals made? Sure. Are bad trades made? Sure. Everyone does it. It happens.

What really comes up in question is myself, as well as 3 other GM's that I currently know of, all were in talks with Ottawa for Horton. I like Horton but walked away because I was told hes only moving for a young upcoming right winger and young upcoming top 4 defensemen. Im sure looking at my team you can figure out who I'm speaking of. The asking price is whatever Ottawa states, which is his call. I have no issues. It was too much for me and I walked. 3 other GM's confirmed that they were in talks and it all revolved around young upcoming players with loads of potential. I wouldnt say Kristo fits that bill at all.

So whats in question is, how is the price for 4 GM's at the minimum young upcoming talent with high potential but for you, its an aging old defensemen with a massive contract. Thats the point. Its a bit strange that the basis for the Horton deal changes tremendously.

Again, I have no issues with bad trades or even trades that arent completely fair. If two GM's agree, I'm always one to say, let the trade pass. I only questioned this as others came to me and brought it to my attention, and then I saw the deal and was a bit shocked as well as I was in talks for Horton numerous times and then the final offer accepted was a complete 180 of what was asked.

[blackhawks]

Alex was late to work in order to get the deal done. Now that is dedication!

[BluesGM]

Jul 15, 2011 23:39:28 GMT -5 LosAngelesGM said:

You are missing the point. The point isnt the actual deal. Are bad deals made? Sure. Are bad trades made? Sure. Everyone does it. It happens.

What really comes up in question is myself, as well as 3 other GM's that I currently know of, all were in talks with Ottawa for Horton. I like Horton but walked away because I was told hes only moving for a young upcoming right winger and young upcoming top 4 defensemen. Im sure looking at my team you can figure out who I'm speaking of. The asking price is whatever Ottawa states, which is his call. I have no issues. It was too much for me and I walked. 3 other GM's confirmed that they were in talks and it all revolved around young upcoming players with loads of potential. I wouldnt say Kristo fits that bill at all.

So whats in question is, how is the price for 4 GM's at the minimum young upcoming talent with high potential but for you, its an aging old defensemen with a massive contract. Thats the point. Its a bit strange that the basis for the Horton deal changes tremendously.

Again, I have no issues with bad trades or even trades that arent completely fair. If two GM's agree, I'm always one to say, let the trade pass. I only questioned this as others came to me and brought it to my attention, and then I saw the deal and was a bit shocked as well as I was in talks for Horton numerous times and then the final offer accepted was a complete 180 of what was asked.

like i said - trades are subjective. we all run our teams differently.

i offered a HELL of alot more than Shawn Horcoff for jussi jokinen. but mike is a kings fan so he made a homer trade and traded for toffoli (whos a good prospect in the nhl - but no different than any 67 ov in this league.

btw - tom is a coyotes fan. david schlemko and vernon fiddler are/were coyotes.

this trade is no different than yours with mike with jokinen. none. there's no basis to reject this trade. if it is rejected, yours should be too - plain and simple.

[BluesGM]

Jul 15, 2011 23:39:28 GMT -5 LosAngelesGM said:

You are missing the point. The point isnt the actual deal. Are bad deals made? Sure. Are bad trades made? Sure. Everyone does it. It happens.

What really comes up in question is myself, as well as 3 other GM's that I currently know of, all were in talks with Ottawa for Horton. I like Horton but walked away because I was told hes only moving for a young upcoming right winger and young upcoming top 4 defensemen. Im sure looking at my team you can figure out who I'm speaking of. The asking price is whatever Ottawa states, which is his call. I have no issues. It was too much for me and I walked. 3 other GM's confirmed that they were in talks and it all revolved around young upcoming players with loads of potential. I wouldnt say Kristo fits that bill at all.

So whats in question is, how is the price for 4 GM's at the minimum young upcoming talent with high potential but for you, its an aging old defensemen with a massive contract. Thats the point. Its a bit strange that the basis for the Horton deal changes tremendously.

Again, I have no issues with bad trades or even trades that arent completely fair. If two GM's agree, I'm always one to say, let the trade pass. I only questioned this as others came to me and brought it to my attention, and then I saw the deal and was a bit shocked as well as I was in talks for Horton numerous times and then the final offer accepted was a complete 180 of what was asked.

now that i've cooled off a bit - i'd like to say a few things.

first of all - tom and i discussed this trade for a good 2-3 hours. his original asking price was goligoski and pacioretty - which is exactly what you described. a young defensman and RW. i didn't want to give that up either, so we were discussing goligoski + something else. i offered polak instead of goligoski. he said he wanted a puck moving defensman and i jokingly said i'd move visnovsky. he said he'd "take him instead if he got good young talent to go along with him"

we worked on that for quite a while. i still didn't want to include pacioretty. believe it or not - i was in no rush to move visnovsky. my team is on a 5 game winning streak, playing well and he's 3rd in defensmen scoring (outscoring horton and hes a defensman!). his individual ratings are excellent. brian campbell is not comparable to him.

he wanted sobotka + schlemko + kristo. i didnt want to deal both of them as i had an offer out that involved sobotka in it (that i thought really had a chance to get accepted) - so i didn't want to move him. since he's a yotes fan - he said he liked fiddler (and i didnt even want to include him, honestly)

you guys are acting like this is a horrifically bad trade when in fact it's not even close to being the worst deal made thus far. the price changed, not just for you but for me. that's how negotiations work - you start high and try to meet in the middle. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

tom and i worked extremely hard to consummate this trade and i personally would be absolutely furious if it was rejected. there is absolutely no basis to reject the move - none.

and on a personal note to the LA GM - this is the second time you have complained about a trade of mine - and from my end it just seems like you whining that you didn't get a player you wanted. the Stars GM told me how you sent him extremely sarcastic and rude e-mails after he traded Eriksson, and now this. you traded for players that I wanted, too, but I have enough class and respect for GM's to not throw a hissy-fit when i dont get who i want. i'm pretty sure i speak for tom and jon (stars GM) when i say - i'd like to get that same respect from you. i'm pretty tom isn't going to be very happy when he sees you calling him out in a public manner, just as jon wasn't very happy with your rude e-mails.

i don't think showing respect to your fellow GM's is too much to ask for.

alex

[BluesGM]

and i'd like to add one more thing:

why did no one question tom when he traded for matt cullen (34 yo - UFA) or andy mcdonald (33 yo 5.2 mil - UFA)?

did anyone bother to notice that he is only 3 points out of a playoff spot and maybe he felt getting visnovsky + 2 good assets is better for his team than having just horton? (carkner and potulny are worth absolutely nothing). and he falls out of the playoff hunt, he could always just trade him at the deadline for more kids?

there's a method to everyones madness. let us run our teams, what fun would this league be if we were handcuffed in making trades?

i really don't see why this became an issue.

[sensgm]

I'll post my comments later... currently recovering from a hang over!

[wildgm]

so, what's the plan here? when someone tells another GM what they're looking for in return for a player, is that now binding? does that asking price expire at some point?

it seems pretty clear from alex's side of things that this came organically out of negotiations. when you start to get specific players offered around, maybe someone says "well, what about this guy instead?" and things can flip around in a hurry and suddenly it doesn't look anything like what you started with. we've all had trade talks like that. people are going to tell you their ideal return up front, but it's like any negotiation in that it almost never works out that perfectly and you'll have to adjust. especially when - think about it - he talked with so many GMs and evidently didn't find anyone willing to meet what he was looking for.

on a broader level, everyone has a plan for their team but it almost never plays out on a straight line. you might see a good chance to get some value that goes against your longer-term plans, but you see how you can use it to your advantage later on. it's not fair to suddenly question someone's motives because of it.

it sucks when a player you were after gets traded to someone else. i just had a bidding war with alex for a player and if i had lost i might just have strangled the life out of his ginger soulless body. but even as i was dumping his corpse into a river, i still would have been able to respect the decision of the other GM for taking the other deal. the takeaway here being: sometimes you don't get the guys you want. attacking other GMs and even questioning their integrity over it is not an appropriate reaction. [murdering probably isn't either. i hereby promise to never kill alex over a ecfhl trade.]

good luck on the hangover, sens gm man!

[sensgm]

Hangover is still there but ill reply all the same. But jeeez so many points you guys have brought up.

Firstly I don’t really appreciate people questioning my trade decisions. I’ve been in a lot of leagues and have a lot of experience, nevertheless I can somewhat understand why PJ would comment staying it looked a little odd because yes it’s pretty clear to see I am rebuilding my team, but why couldn’t you question it, and leave it to the Commish to contact me as to my intensions in making such a trade?

I’m also a little annoyed that I know have to explain myself to everyone, but I will! So the here are the key points for me making the trade:-

1. Has anyone looked at Visnovsky’s ratings? He is one of the best puck moving D-men in the league and has 15 points in 21 games. Yes his age doesn’t fit to my team’s strategy but his ratings and type of play do! Having said that, I’m 90% sure I would have traded (if it weren’t for all these comments) for some more youth by the end of the season.

2. Ryan Potulny, Matt Carkner and Patrick Wiercioch are not really of any value to me so don’t play a major role in this deal.

3. I get Danny Kristo who is Montreal’s top prospect... and should therefore be rated fairly well! A solid 20 year old is still fitting into my plan of re-building and asking for youth in return for Horton.

4. David Schlemko again is pretty young at 23 and isn’t a bad pick-up! He has some value and again fits into the rebuild plan.

5. I asked for Vernon Fiddler because I liked how to played with the Coyotes in real life... and he’s a useful player with decent IT, ST and DF.

6. The "one meeeellion dollars" ;)is to offset a bit of Visnovsky’s contract.

Now what I am most concerned about is how these comments will affect my ability to possibly trade Visnovsky in the future and how Kristo is created.

You have all pretty much commented on how you value Visnovsky and now I’m sure other GMs will take the stance! That doesn’t leave me with much leverage in trade decisions. As you guys suggested in all likelihood I would move Visnovsky for some more youth... but that’s now going to be a lot harder. In regards to Kristo I have a feeling his rating will now be affected as it is PJ who makes the prospects and it is him who seems to have a lot to say about the deal.


Finally if the league does not want this trade to be processed (for what ever reason) I am happy to retain Horton. I don’t need to trade him, which is what I said to a lot of you in other trade discussions – but I am sure the Blues GM would have something else to say if that was the case!

Essay over!

[bluejacketsgm]

schlemko and kristo aren't worth very much either really. most gms have several players in their farm just as good as schlemko and kristo is already 21 and according to his HF score would only come out to be a mid to upper 60's player. Neither of these guys is really much more than a throw-in to a deal.

"carkner and potulny are worth absolutely nothing" Carkner does have some value to be fair, maybe not to you...but you like to trade and a dman with 70+ d rating and decent IT and ST plus signed to a near league minimum deal for four more years has at least some value to somebody out there. potulny is also signed to near league minimum although, i agree, isn't anything truly special although he should continue to get better for a few more seasons because of his age.

[bluejacketsgm]

in the end...it is what it is..which was just a confusing trade from one teams perspective. We can all live without Horton on our team.